Tuesday, March 24, 2009

Live by the sword, die by the sword

Tonight's Skills Game was going smoothly. I was in the top ten most of the evening.


But then two things happened: I made a big flush and lost the maximum when the board paired.

And then I played this hand. 85ss was betrayed. I'm sure NB is in shock (and laughing his guts out).

This brilliantly-played hand brought to you by yours truly and Heffmike. I guess he figured he could "represent" an overpair and bluff me, when I was having none of it. Most sane players would fold an underpair on the flop when I make a 4-bet. But hey, sometimes you can chase down an 86/13 favourite. It's only limit hold'em, right?

The joke was on me, indeed. I shall pretend villain had a masterfully-played overpair to the board.

NB. A good case can be made for me to take an alternate line: I can call the flop bet and raise any turn card. This might get a lot of hands to fold even if, as here, opponent is sticky with bluff-catchers.


Snuffy said...

Knowing him I would think you are ahead 100% of the time too.

Heffmike said...

you guys, always thinking I'm holding a Joker and the rules card...

1) Be a little more results oriented. You are so focused on what I actually had and how I runner-runnered you, and not focused on how far behind you were any reasonable range of holdings.

You lose to any overpair on the flop and big clubs (AcKc, AcQc) aren't going anywhere.

When the flush comes on the turn, now what are you beating? T9o or 65o. I guess. 66/44 when I'm being stubborn. Ax with a club is going to peel one more street getting 3-1, and overpairs with a club will slowdown to get to showdown. Am I missing anything else that gets threebet preflop and capped on the flop?

You weren't valuebetting 8h5h on the turn and river. That's a bluff. I hope you understand that. Me calling down like a monkey light, possibly drawing dead to a smaller flush, doesn't change the overall situation.

You were stealing and decided to go to war with a pair of eights/no kicker in a threebet pot preflop. You probably lose more often than you win in that spot regardless of how stupid I play.

2) Threebetting the flop is OMG silly given my actual holding.

Threebetting the flop given my range is standard - it's what I would do with any hand that flops big, and what I would do with the vast majority of hands that I threebet preflop out of position.

Threebet/folding the flop to a cap is beyond idiotic. Pot's already over 4000, who folds for 300 more no matter how deep a hole you've dug yourself, c'mon.

3)Put it this way. No club on the river, if call anyway and you show Kx no club - I'm certainly not going to complain about it despite being in front every street. That'll happen. I'll look really stupid if you show AcAx or even 9c9x, but I don't care about perceptions like that.

Stupid hands like this get me paid off when I actually hit something, because everyone thinks I'm making a move every time I raise postflop.

History shows I may get involved preflop with some marginal holdings, but I usually don't get heavily involved postflop without something substantial backing it up - at least a big draw of some sort. This is an unusual circumstance.

You tried to pick me off making a move with a marginal holding of your own, and it almost worked. But it didn't. That's poker.

Don't make it into another "I'm smart and everyone's a moron" thing. You want me calling down that light, don't you?

Schaubs said...


Shrike said...


I understand hand ranges and table image. I probably don't cap the flop against most players there. But I am trying to get you to fold all of your ace-x hands. When I cap there, I am saying "I think eights up is the best hand here, go away". Call me stubborn, call me a soul reader, whatever, but I thought my marginal hand was best and I backed up my read with my chips. Calling the 4bet and peeling here is just bad tournament poker. In a bloated cash game pot, sure, that's different, but there's no denying you put in a lot of bets in on the flop and turn with the worst hand. To win a limit tournament you have to save bets when you are beat and drawing very thin and live to fight another day. Tournament strategy considerations and your actual holding of 44 should equal a fold.

I don't mind being called down light -- in fact I encourage it as much as possible -- but I continue to be amazed at your analysis. Let's put the shoe on the other foot: what other hands are in my range? I can tell you that 77+ is. 7x is. With the pot at 4K when I put in the 4th bet, you are looking at the prospect of investing 1500 more chips to get the showdown and the final pot reaches 6750. How often do you think you actually win here? Is it worth the investment? I'd say no.

Shrike said...


Ouch indeed.

Shrike said...

Heff actually improved to 32% equity with the turn. Equity calculations are fun!

Instant Tragedy said...

Hmm, I thought he would have gotten the 6 on the river. :-)

Ok, Now can we all just stop fighting... Because if we're fighting, I have a few choice words to IIIIIIaaagggg never mind

lightning36 said...

Dang -- thought I was reading Hoy's blog ...

Fuel55 said...

The whole problem is avoidable if you learn to open fold 85 in a limit game.

NewinNov said...

I always find it fascinating how two people can look at the same situation in poker and come to two completely different realizations.

lj said...

admittedly i did not read op, but heffmike, that was awesome response/rant.

lucko said...

Worst part of the hand by far is the river bluff. Other than that, I really dont mind much of the hand on either side.